Unedited conversations between artist in a productive critique  discovering  thesis and processes behind the work.








Conversation between Sinisa Kukec and Olivia Ramos.


Sinisa Kukec,

ZENITHSLUTS (in silver) a gravitywell, 2014  Acrylic Mirror and Red Oak,

86 x 45 x 2.5 in.

RAMOS:  ‪thank you for joining me‬‬‬


KUKEC: Thank you for the invitation... please forgive my slow typing/ incorrect spelling, etc, etc...


I might be jumping the gun but I'd like to share this with you... have not looked at these words for some time now...


"If I did not exceed nature in a leap beyond. "the static and the given", I would be defined by laws. But Nature plays me further than herself, beyond the laws, the limits that make humble people love her…"


          pg. xii The collected Poems of George Bataille


i keep reading it over and over‬‬‬


and it means a different thing every time


Lucid to the point of being blind...‬‬‬




- the limits that make humble people love her...


the limits beyond the law?


i love that


"the limits beyond the law"


that's where we should all play


"the limits beyond the law" if you have the power to do so?‬‬‬


nature has the power to do so‬‬‬




‪does nature make law?‬‬‬


not sure...‬‬‬


‪i think so‬‬‬


such as moss grows on the north side of the tree


but I am sure that humans do... and this usually follows...  absolute power corrupts absolutely.‬‬‬


well my questions is‬‬‬


if we already have laws, provided by nature


why not just enforce those


Earth's gravity well  does a good job of keeping many of us in check... but apparently we have been to the moon... and we now have a robot roaming the surface of MARS.‬‬‬


i'm not sure if gravity belongs to nature or to the universe‬‬‬

the scenario i thought of, taking the moss law into consideration and how to enforce that...


we can say, on the norther hemisphere, that all buildings must grow food on the north side of the building


i'm trying to think how to enforce gravity - but you bring up a good point


it seems as though we are often trying to defy the laws of nature


we defy them more than enforce them


and we achieve pretty amazing things... like a drone in mars


but have we been able to coexist with nature, other living things, each other, etc..


‪everything in the universe is part of the universe... including humans and their ideologies/dogma...  and many are now thinking that it's not a universe anymore... Welcome to the multiverse.‬‬‬


yeah humans are pretty clever and have come a long way but I feel if humanity doesn't expand it's collective consciousness... beyond the classical theological order... it's business as usual... the space ship earth is simply saying no thank you.‬‬‬




so far there is a collective sense of superiority and detachment form nature


and naturally it's laws


a collective arrogance


and that will only ... or has only caused friction


‪this actually is a great transition to you piece‬‬‬


‪Z E N I T H S L U T S                   in silver‬‬‬


you choose in the correct order, nice!


‪tell me about it‬‬‬


what would you like to know about it?‬‬‬


‪there's a narrative‬‬‬


and i might have heard you describe it


the quality of attraction


the reflection and distortion


when I observe the 3 dimensional world around me... I feel that much of it behaves the same way... celestial bodies create  attraction or  gravity (well)... humans and their ideologies, dogmas memes, belief systems... love...  function in the same way but we humans go beyond the laws.‬‬‬


we sort of miss the point‬‬‬


not sure if there is a point to be miss we are and we do?‬‬‬


and we are here.


the point of human existence‬‬‬


the point of natural laws


the world is our oyster and we keep on trucking!‬‬‬


the seduction must never rest.


the human phenomenon of desire...


The Final Theory?‬‬‬


desire is natural‬‬‬


as is hate.‬‬‬


‪i don't know if hate is natural‬‬‬


i would argue that it is not


can't think of an animal that hates another


a plant that hates


a mountain that hates


they don't even hate us


and we've done quite a number on them


we, humans, only hate ourselves


mountain that desire?‬‬‬




the mountain desires rain


and trees and mist and sun


Ha! you sound so sure... this is where our reflection begins to ripple the surface of this Vitruvian bog... we all gaze into.‬‬‬


‪maybe that's too poetic‬‬‬


‪I love poetic...‬‬‬


how do you use the word Vitruvian in this case‬‬‬


‪V I T R U V I A N S L U T S     red yellow blue square circle triangle‬‬‬


‪right but why Vitruvian?‬‬‬


i only know Vitruvius from the Ten Books of Architecture and the architecture orders


civil engineer


roman 1st century BC


‪Drawing from Leonardo da Vinci’s, Vitruvian Man, a work based on the correlations of ideal human proportions with geometry, by the ancient Roman architect Vitruvius, who described the human figure as being the principal source of proportion among the Classical orders.  Alongside this ideal Kukec places a word who’s ultimate origin is unknown; sluts or "slut", which first appeared in Middle english in 1402, with the meaning "a dirty, untidy, or slovenly woman” (and in time men). However Kukec refers to the word as, ‘non gender (human) greed’.   Or to quote from the 5th edition of   L O V E L I K E T H E U N I V E R S E ,  the social media writings of Isha Rose Servitus translated by Kukec, “vitruviansluts are consubstantial, in time, both devoid of shame and love...  a Lucretius collision”‬‬‬


‪so the slut is he who stares into the piece‬‬‬


‪and proportion is used in relation to distortion‬‬‬


not necessarily through geometry although the pieces do look geometric


therefore the human being is the principal source of distortion


‪also, not sure if this is relevant at all... but Vitruvius only wrote about the orders... Alberti was the first to manifest them graphically..


so you are the Alberti or the Da Vinci‬‬‬




thank you


‪you are welcomed.... but if that is the case... who is Vitruvius... is it Rose Servitus?‬‬‬


Consciousness or maybe god.‬‬‬


‪L O V E L I K E T H E U N I V E R S E‬‬‬






are you suggesting that God's message through you, and through  this piece, is that humans are a reflection of a distorted set of laws‬‬‬


I am suggesting that we as humans are god/consciousness... creativity... curios... intuition pumps... and sky hook!   We are the collective intelligent designers that continually effect or call it distort... the reflection or memory of law.‬‬‬


‪in a way we carry universal law within our spiritual DNA and therefore have an instinct to create law consciously, except these get distorted along the way due to self-will


not sure about spiritual DNA... but I like to be a romantic and think of it as my core... and I have no idea where it came from... my self-will that is.‬‬


the self will is equivalent to the Ego‬‬


Ah yes the EGO... I take that back I know where my self-will came from... through my desire to negate firstly my parents... secondly, any system of power, I have to face...


What I don't know is where that desire to negate came from... EGO? -  must be something I'm blocking out from my childhood... or some might think some how further back than that... spiritual DNA?‬‬


‪the Ego is much younger than the Spirit


the Ego is born the first time we feel neglected as in the first time we feel we are not provided for


in the Spirit world everything is provided for, in the physical world there are limitations, the first time we feel limited or without, the Ego is born


from then on, anytime we don't get what we want the Ego is activated

with a sense of entitlement or victimization


That's a nice idea... so when you know (discover) something and think it to be... real? truth? does it remain that way forever?‬‬


‪it depends... what are you referring to?‬‬


and what do you mean by forever?


‪I'm referring to existence here and now... not before or what comes after... the ideas/ideologies we are able to construct are so amazing...


Forever, meaning infinite... Forever dreaming of a final theory.‬‬


I would like to share with you an idea with you...‬‬


The opening quote in Manuel De Landa’s Book. A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History.  “When atoms are traveling straight down through empty space by their own weight, at quite indeterminate times and places, they swerve ever so little from their course, just so much that you would call it a change of direction. If it were not for this swerve, everything would fall downwards through the abyss of space. No collision would take place and no impact of atom on atom would be created. Thus Nature would never have created anything.”  - Lucretius  (ca. 99 BC – ca. 55 BC)




so sorry for going backwards.


is nature then the swerve itself?‬‬


where does that come from?


‪I found it through Manuel De Landa’s Book. A Thousand Years of Nonlinear History.‬‬


‪oh not the quote‬‬


i mean the swerve


what causes the swerve... if the atoms are falling by their own weight


is that the very first sign of nature itself?


the void the vacuum every thing and nothing that is in or out of it is the Universe or as some think today the multiverse... nature the way I like to think about it at this moment is nonlinear... and many perceive the human construct to be linear... time?‬‬


‪is nature and God interchangeable here?‬‬


not sure... Nature the universe from my experience/observation is infinite/real/truth... god is an idea/ideology... the funny thing here is that there is a conversation (in science) that the only thing that could survive or pass through a black hole is information... an idea?


‪the infinite is technically an ideology isn't it?‬‬


i mean we don't really know if theres such a thing


yes... and yet again we find our selves back in the "strange loop"...‬‬


‪or we just accept that everything is God‬‬


‪No... so sorry but I don't like that idea at all. I like this one better.‬‬


"In the end, we are self-perceiving, self-inventing, locked-in mirages that are little miracles of self-reference."


— Douglas Hofstadter, I Am a Strange Loop p.363


is that you or your Ego talking?


‪I think it's Hofstadter's ego talking... I'm just a simple mirror.‬‬